Hi

We bought a hermann tortoise (Munster) who is about 14 months old at the beginning of Aug. He is adorable, but over the last few days he has had a runny nose and blows bubbles. He is eating fine but does sleep alot. Can anyone help? I think he is poorly but my partner says i am over reacting. 

NOT over reacting. PLEASE get Munster to a reptile vet ASAP. If you click on the menu left hand side of the screen under Breeders and Vets you should be able to find a recommended vet in your area, if not get back to us and we will try to locate one close to you. Meantime give planty of warm bathed to keep him hydrated and check your tempretures and that the substrate is correct. The Hermanns care sheet is under The Tortoise on the menu bar. It may also be worth getting a faecal sample checked out just incase he has worms.

Any other questions PLEASE ask, we are here to help and please let us know how you get on at the vets. I am positive he will be given antibiotics and you need to keep the tempreture at the top side of what has been recommended in the care sheets in order for these to work.

Good luck

Elaine

Hiya,

As Elaine has said, you should really seek good veterinary advice. RNS can be very serious, even fatal if left untreated as it can affect the lungs/respiratory system.

Is the tortoise on it's own or with other tortoise at all?

What substrate do you use and is Munster in a viv please?

TC
Darren

Hi Elaine & Darren

Oh no!!!. I have printed off the vets list and there looks like there is one close by so i will contact them ASAP.

The substrate that we use is a mixture of clean sand and top soil. Also his enclosure has wood chippins and pebbles. He isn't in a viv, we built a wooden enclosure which we have kept in the conservatory untill last night when we brought it in to the house as we wondered if it was getting to cold. The temp guage in the conservatory has been reading 15 degrees at night and between 20-25 in the day. We do have a day light bulb that he likes to sit under. At the moment we only have Munster.

If he has RNS do you know how he got it and how to prevent it?

Thanks for all the advice

Catherine & Jon

Hi Catherine and Jon,  to the group! The sand (hopefully play sand) and the mix with top soil is excellent! Wood chippings I would remove, especially if they are pine as these omit toxic fumes when heated up. Pebbles are also good as this helps build up thier muscles. The weather has been quite dreadful this year and I am sure many more torts will suffer because of this.

Does Munster go outside?

Does your day bulb give off UVB? The temps you are quoting sound fine providing there is a basking area of about 30°? The care sheet explains the importance of UVB in more detail.

Did you buy him from a pet shop? Many of the petshop tortoises are imported and often have a gut load of worms, which if left untreated could result in Runny Nose Syndrome. Many worms are not visable to the naked eye so you may not see them. If he has passed a fresh faecal sample, place it in a sealed plastic bag, then into another sealed plastic bag and keep cool, the vet should then be able to check for worms too.  

Please let us know how you get on, which vet are you going to?

regards

Elaine

Hi Elaine

We have got an appointment on Wednesday at the Vets in Newport as this is the nearest to us.

Munster only goes outside on warm days like this weekend for an hour or so at the moment as the pet shop we bought him from (Dragon Reptiles) said he is to young to go outside all day. We are going to build him an outdoor home next year.

The certificate that we had sent to us not long after we had him said he was captive born & bred in Bridgend which is not far from Cardiff (pure welsh tortoise!! he he).

Aswell as his day light bulb we got him a UVB bulb which are next to each other. Just after purchasing Munster we did a lot of reserch and we printed the care sheets off from your website which were very handy and hence why I joined the forum. All the advice seems very genuine and informative and from people in the know.

I have some photos that i will up load to the site and i will keep you updated on his condition.

Many Thank

Catherine, Jon & Munster

Hi, It really does soud as if you are doing everything right, so I can understand fully the anxiety it causes when they then get ill. Only other thing i can think of at the moment (I do tend to ponder things over) is the vitamin supplements, do you give him Nutrobol or Reptivite as well as his calcium? Sorry for the third degree here but it just gives us a fuller picture. Do keep up with the bathes and be very vigilant with the temps until he gets to the vets. Any problems ask away.

Regards

Elaine

Hi Elaine

We give him tortoise dust (t-rex i think) which we bought when we had him and a cutle fish. I have read on this forum that people use calcuim powder. Would this be better to use?

Thanks

As far as I am aware T-rex tortoise dust is a simple calcium powder, hopefully someone else will comment if not. At 12 months of age I would still be giving a daily supplement of Nutrobol, this is a vitamins supplement (follow man. instructions). You will also need to start thinking about over wintering him too as after an illness like Runny Nose Syndrome  it would not be advisable to hibernate Munster this year.

Elaine

T-Rex dust is a food supplement, and isn't really recommended, because it is relatively high in protein (and not high in Calcium), but it won't actually do him harm, and certainly wouldn't have caused RNS. (Here is a link to an ad that gives ingredients - but you'll have to cut and paste, as I can't post live links: http://www.petclubuk.com/froogle.do?id=1224
However, he should be getting a good calcium supplement, and also Nutrobal. I use Nutrobal a couple of times a week (it's got calcium and Vitamin D3 and other vitamins in it) and limestone flour on the other days. You can buy limestone flour from horsefeed suppliers, and it is almost pure calcium carbonate.
The other thing you can do is to leave a cuttlefish bone in his enclosure ( the things you buy for budgies), and he can nibble on that as he pleases and get calcium that way too. Some tortoises won't eat cuttlefish fresh, and you might have to leave it outside for a month or so to weather in the rain and other elements.

Good luck with the vet and let us know you got on.

Nina

Sorry, I meant to say that some tortoises don't like Nutrobal, but you can trick them by giving it on a piece of cucumber or something that they really like. Also, the Tortoise Trust recommends that young tortoises have Nutrobal every day.

Nina

Hi, this could be Runny Nose Syndrome and if so there is a treatment for it.  One of my Hermanns had this last year and she did get better.  It took a while and the tortoise was quite subdued for some time, but seems to have made a good recovery.  This year she did well.  Sometimes we are advised to keep a tortoise a bit warmer including at night when under treatment, but I'm sure your vet will advise you. 

Hi Elaine

Jon took Muster to the vet yesterday and she didnt really say what it was wrong, but he has to have 4 antibiotic injections 3 days apart, so i will find on Saturday if it was RNS or not. She weight him and say that he was a healthy size and weight for his age, which is a good thing. Jon did say that Munster wasnt very happy happy with a great big needle being stuck in to his little leg , so i am not look forward to that. Bless him. I have to say he did seem a little perkier last night, so maybe we caught what ever he has early enough for a course of treatment to work.

The vet was quite reasonable £19 consultation fee and then £4 per injection. I asume this is good. 

We have taken the wood chippins out of his home and we manged to buy some Nutrobal from a local reptile shop. Limestone flour is seeming to be a little harder to get hold of, so have put his cuttle fish outside to weather for a few weeks.

One more question - is it ok to have plants like heather and shrubs in his home and do you know of a way to keep flys away without using chemicals that could hurt Munster?

Many thanks to you all for your support and advice.

Catherine, Jon and a on the mend Munster

Hi guys, glad to hear your little chap is getting better, i have just bought some lime stone flour, but i had to get it sent from family down south, they got it for me from there local equestrian shop, it wasn't expensive, i tried a couple of horse shops locally but they didn't have any, put some on Mr Browns tea last night and he thouroughly enjoyed it. It came in a 3kilo tub, and will probably last hundreds of years ...lol.

I can get the name of the shop if you struggle, just pop a note back up, i log in most days.

Hope you get it sorted and your little Munster keeps on getting better.

Debi

Hi All, I had been thinking about you yesterday. Really pleased for you that all went well and what a good price! The injection is uncomfortable as it is with us humans but you just have to remember that they don't have the ability to cough so the injections are a must to clear this before it becomes too bad. I hope the vet told you to keep the heat up both day and night in order for the antibiatics to work. That is good that you are now starting Munster on Nutrobol, it does make a difference to their long term health. Having shrubs makes their enclousures more interesting. Inside i tend to use things like Aloe Vera and different cacti, but out doors my favorite shrubs are Hebes. Nina is very good with plants so any in particulare that you are not sure about ask away and we will try to help. What is attracting the flies in? If i grow peppers or fruit I get flies in my tortoise house but without these I have very few if any come in. Sorry flies but i do tend to swat them with a newspaper if any intrude as they set my alarms off . The Limstone flour as Debi said you normally can get this from most horse food suppliers, you can always grate the cuttlebone over his food too, just run the blunt side of a knife down it, this should do until you can get some Limestone.

Really great to read Munster is responding so well to the treatment. Keep us updated.

regards

Elaine 

If they are little midge type flies they may be living in the soil of your plants, dont use any chemicals, best to buy one of those sticky fly traps, its like a piece of curled paper that you can hang above the table, the flies will stick to it, not very attractive though!!!

Glad to hear Munster is on the mend.

Vivienne

Hi All

Thanks for all the great advice.

The vet didn't mention keeping his temps up, but we have from all the advice on this site. I am taking Munster tomoorrow so i will quiz her a little more.

I managed to get Limestone flour from a hourse feed supplier in Cardiff after phoning around a few. 3KG (£4.95)!!! so its going to last Munster a whole life time. I put that and the nutrubol on his food last night and he seemed like it as he was munching away on his clover and cucumber!.

The fly tape sounds like a good idea so i will give it a go.

Thanks all

Catherine, Jon and Munster

Hiya

I've been following the story on Munster's progress and I'm glad he's started on treatment and look forward to hearing of his continued progress.  As for the flies, you've been given some good advice already, but do check under the water dish that the substrate isn't wet as that will encourage those tiny black flies.

Helen

Hi All

Just to let you know that Munster is doing well. I took him on saturday for his second injection and i think he knew what was coming because he went right in to his shell and the vet had a job to inject him.

I asked the vet whether it was RNS and he said he wasnt sure but was giving him antibiotics as a pre-caution, as it could have been the early stages. I also asked him about increasing the temp slightly for these to work and he said that was rubbish. Anyway we have as I thought it couldn't do any harm to him.

We have bought some new plants for him (Aloe, spider plant & non spicky cactus) which he had a good sniff at to check it out. He has become a curious little thing and wants to climb out of everything so we had to buy him a new home which is slighly deep to stop trying to climb out. At least we know he is getting better.

Many thanks to everyone for their support and advice.

Catherine Jon & Munster  

I am pleased to hear Munster is continuing to do well.  As for your vet's opinion re temps.  Here is a quote from a well known reputable tortoise vet

" The preferred body temperature of Testudo species is around 30°.  If kept too low their immune system will not function". 

He goes on to say

"If the tortoise is on medication such as antibiotics, keeping it at its preffered body temperature will mean that its body manages and eliminates the drug in a manner predicatable to your veterinary surgeon" (Jepson,L., 2006).

I'm sure keeping the temps up 24 hours a day will help the antibiotics to be metabolised more effectively.

Helen

Hi Catherine and Jon, Can you e-mail me at

elaine@tortoise-protection-group.org.uk with the name of the vet and the practice you went to as we don't want to be recommending a vet that does not recognise RNS nor 'rubbishes' raised temps during treatment of antibiotics. All tortoise keepers are not as good as you both to do research which could lead to a fatality which we don't want!

Really pleased that Munster has responded to the treatment so well!

TC

Elaine

Sorry to jump in here, but just to remind everyone if you click on the underlined posters name then members can send private mails to others without publically  revealing their email address if they prefer.  I know most are aware of this facility but some of our new members may not be - so it just seemed like a timely reminder.

Helen

Hi,